Not good with Pa & Ma

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Nora
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Not good with Pa & Ma

Messaggioda Nora » mar apr 24, 2007 5:16 am

Ciao a tutti.

Things are going the wrong way with the chicks of Pa & Ma... I'm very worried and would like to talk with you experts about it.

On the Dutch forum people are talking about an intruding strange female... but personally I'm not convinced there's a stranger involved here!

Does any of you know how a male, sitting in the nest with his chicks, would behave when a strange female enters the nest? Will the male defend the nest and chicks? Will he try to attack the strange falcon?

I'll try to describe what I saw on the cam, several times when the 'strange' female entered the nest:
1) the male does not call alarm
2) he does not try to prevent the 'stranger' from entering, he does not open his wings in defense display
3) the male stays put on the eggs...later on the chicks
4) he reluctantly leaves the nest... and returns soon after the 'stranger' left

Because of the male's behaviour, I personally think it's not an intruding strange female, but Ma behaving strange!

Please, I need to talk about this... with people who have some knowledge about falcons...

Thank you!
Let them be Peregrines in their own peregrine way!
Just watch and learn.

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Nora
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Messaggioda Nora » mar apr 24, 2007 6:54 am

:shock: There seems to be an intruder indeed!

I just saw her stealing away the food while Pa was starting to feed his chicks. (I posted some images here: http://www.birdcam.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5199#5199 )

Ma has a red band on her left leg... this stranger has a broad band, white or silver coloured, with black letters on it... she seems to be Belgium...

I'm very puzzled by Pa's behaviour... I know a male falcon can't fight with a female... but still...


Sorry, I don't like to translate all this with Google... I'm a bit sad now and a bit emotional... :(
Let them be Peregrines in their own peregrine way!

Just watch and learn.

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Roxy
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Messaggioda Roxy » mar apr 24, 2007 10:08 am

Nora ha scritto::shock: There seems to be an intruder indeed!

I just saw her stealing away the food while Pa was starting to feed his chicks. (I posted some images here: http://www.birdcam.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5199#5199 )

Ma has a red band on her left leg... this stranger has a broad band, white or silver coloured, with black letters on it... she seems to be Belgium...

I'm very puzzled by Pa's behaviour... I know a male falcon can't fight with a female... but still...


Sorry, I don't like to translate all this with Google... I'm a bit sad now and a bit emotional... :(


Nora e' molto preoccupata per quel che succede nel nido di Pa e Ma .. era gia successo quando pa stava covando le uova, ora e' di nuovo successo mentre lui stava covando i piccoli.

Un falco femmina diverso da Ma (nel primo msg Nora sospettava si trattasse della stessa Ma con un comportamento anomalo ma sono riusciti a vedere gli anelli che sono di colore diverso, quindi questa ipotesi e' caduta) ..

La femmina straniera (sembra sia belga quinidi straniera in tutti i sensi) entra nel nido e Pa non ha alcun segno di di difesa resta tranquillo un po' sulle sue sui piccoli (e precedentemente sulle uova ci sono anche delle immagini di questa prima intrusione) e quando lei si avvicina riluttante lascia il nido alla sua merce' .. rifugiandosi fuori.. Lei ispeziona i piccoli e adirittura gli ha rubato il cibo mentre lui stava imboccando i piccoli...

Nora era molto coivolta emotivamente e non se la sentiva di mettersi a tradurre con google ma vorrebbe il sostegno di un esperto su questo comportamento anomalo..

Lei sa che di norma i maschi non attaccano le femmine, ma le sembra che la mancanza di atteggiamenti di protezione da parte di PA non sia normale ne' comprensibile.. anche non attaccando la femmina dovrebbero esserci maggiori segnali di difesa mentre invece lui resta inerme...

Se qualcuno puo' darle delle spiegazioni le farebbe molto piacere avere il conforto di un esperto.....
"Il gatto disse: non sono un amico e non sono un servitore. Sono il gatto che cammina da solo e desidero entrare nella tua tana." Rudyard Kipling

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Roxy
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Messaggioda Roxy » mar apr 24, 2007 10:19 am

Nora ha scritto::shock: There seems to be an intruder indeed!

I just saw her stealing away the food while Pa was starting to feed his chicks. (I posted some images here: http://www.birdcam.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5199#5199 )

Ma has a red band on her left leg... this stranger has a broad band, white or silver coloured, with black letters on it... she seems to be Belgium...

I'm very puzzled by Pa's behaviour... I know a male falcon can't fight with a female... but still...


Sorry, I don't like to translate all this with Google... I'm a bit sad now and a bit emotional... :(


hi Nora, Ive briefly resumed and translated yr message even if the main experts (Giac and Raptorbiol) do not have problems in reading english, but I assume they are very busy with bandings right now. But should there be somebody else who can explain you what's going on and do not know english as well...this could help... I'll post yr question somewhere else and if I'll get an answer I'll revert it to you.

Just a couple of question from my side... could it be that the strange female is a adult chick from previous nesting of Pa and Ma?
The situation is very complicate, the female seems to know well when Pa is alone on the nest , Ma would be much more aggressive then Pa against her and this could take to a dramatic fight between the two females...
But falcons have a good eye shot, therefore Ma should be far away when the other female is near the nest, otherwise she should attack a foreign falcon in her territory while nesting!!
"Il gatto disse: non sono un amico e non sono un servitore. Sono il gatto che cammina da solo e desidero entrare nella tua tana." Rudyard Kipling

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Nora
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Messaggioda Nora » mar apr 24, 2007 11:27 am

Thank you very much Roxy, for the translation!

I'll try to answer your questions:
Roxy ha scritto: ... could it be that the strange female is a adult chick from previous nesting of Pa and Ma?
No, that's not possible. The intruding female has a band/ring from Belgium. (band/ring = anello in Italian?)

Roxy, and everybody else who reads this, :!: Ma hasn't been seen since last sunday... :!:

Roxy ha scritto: The situation is very complicate, the female seems to know well when Pa is alone on the nest , Ma would be much more aggressive then Pa against her and this could take to a dramatic fight between the two females...
But falcons have a good eye shot, therefore Ma should be far away when the other female is near the nest, otherwise she should attack a foreign falcon in her territory while nesting!!
We kind of expect there has been a battle between Ma and the intruder... but as far as I know there's no evidence found except for the mysterious absence of Ma...

Roxy, you're so right about the intruder knowing exactly when Pa is alone... and when he arrives with food...
This strange female has been here for some weeks now... she mostly appeared at the nest when Ma was away... But Ma has chased her away several times, at least that's what we assume...

This intruding female goes for the easy meal... stealing food from the little ones... Maybe she has never learned to hunt herself?

I wonder if there's a possibillity the stranger will take over Ma's place and duties? Will she start feeding and attending the chicks?

Thank you Roxy, I very appreciate your efforts!

By the way, this very moment I'm writing this message, the intruder is on the ledge...
Let them be Peregrines in their own peregrine way!

Just watch and learn.

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Roxy
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Messaggioda Roxy » mar apr 24, 2007 12:52 pm

Nora ha scritto:By the way, this very moment I'm writing this message, the intruder is on the ledge...


hi nora, I feel so sad for what happens there. There is nothing we really can do from here. I'm not very religious but I'll prey and hope biologists will do something to save the chicks... If Ma has lost her battle (hope she is not dead and will come back soon... but if not...) at least the chicks should be saved... Hope just hope not to see bad developments of this situation
"Il gatto disse: non sono un amico e non sono un servitore. Sono il gatto che cammina da solo e desidero entrare nella tua tana." Rudyard Kipling

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Aleali
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Messaggioda Aleali » mar apr 24, 2007 5:11 pm

...I saw the chicks and they stayed alone for a long time...I'm really afraid they could be starving!.... :(


Anyone has got some Holland referee's e-mail? :roll:
Ciao,
Ale

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Raptorbiol
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Messaggioda Raptorbiol » mer apr 25, 2007 12:18 am

good news.... i copy here one email i received from a mailinglist just some minutes ago:

Da: raptor-conservation@yahoogroups.com [mailto:raptor-conservation@yahoogroups.com] Per conto di cheri.todd@shell.com
Inviato: martedì 24 aprile 2007 21.28
A: raptor-conservation@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: RE: [raptor-conservation] Intruding female peregrine video

The birdies are getting fed right now...Daddy just arrived with food for all...How cute...

Cheri

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Roxy
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Messaggioda Roxy » mer apr 25, 2007 12:53 am

Raptorbiol ha scritto:good news.... i copy here one email i received from a mailinglist just some minutes ago:

Da: raptor-conservation@yahoogroups.com [mailto:raptor-conservation@yahoogroups.com] Per conto di cheri.todd@shell.com
Inviato: martedì 24 aprile 2007 21.28
A: raptor-conservation@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: RE: [raptor-conservation] Intruding female peregrine video

The birdies are getting fed right now...Daddy just arrived with food for all...How cute...

Cheri


it seems to me that this is not true... the chicks are still alone, Pa is not there.. and now it is nighttime temperature are decreasing... they probably need to be warmth too
"Il gatto disse: non sono un amico e non sono un servitore. Sono il gatto che cammina da solo e desidero entrare nella tua tana." Rudyard Kipling

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Niseema
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Messaggioda Niseema » mer apr 25, 2007 11:38 am

guido ha risposto alla mia mail

From: Guido Aijkens <aijkensguido@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: from www.birdcam.it/forum

Hello, there is progress, this morning two feeds without intervention
of the intruding female. We are hoping that she will start help
feeding the young. The dutch peregrine group has decided not
to take action, but they want nature to do the job.

(i'm not a member of the working group)

There is allready lots of protest in the Netherlands and it will
make no difference i'm afraid.

gr
Guido Aijkens

****************************
mia mail

hi! in our forum we are very sad for pa and ma story
can you help for search a way to save the chcks?
my english is bad, I'm sorry...

see: http://www.birdcam.it/new2/forum/viewto ... 8&start=45

to which email we can protest with administrator of the nest?
Pagina Facebook di Birdcam.it, visibile anche ai non iscritti → https://www.facebook.com/Birdcam.it

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Aleali
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Messaggioda Aleali » mer apr 25, 2007 12:03 pm

this morning two feeds without intervention
of the intruding female. We are hoping that she will start help
feeding the young.


Well well well!!!!
Let's go for hope!!!!
Don't give up!!!

Let's not talk about laws.... :?
Ciao,

Ale

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Giovanna
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Messaggioda Giovanna » mer apr 25, 2007 12:30 pm

Yea, don't give up!Immagine
- São aves cheias de abismo,
Como nos sonhos as há.
- Fernando Pessoa

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Giac
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save the chicks

Messaggioda Giac » sab apr 28, 2007 10:31 am

We must help the chicks!

What is happening in the Ma & Pa nest now is something which has nothing to with natural selection: the chicks hatched heatlhy and the parents were caring very well about them.
Then, Ma disappeared and Pa was raising the brood alone: Natural Selection has formed the instinct of this male in order to cope with a sudden disappearance of its mate, and he was doing quite well its job.
Then, another unexpected event: the female subtracting the food (but respecting the chicks), and Pa still trying to feed them. But this seems not to be enough and the chicks are just at the limit of their survival..

I am asking you (the responsible(s) of this nest) to undertake some actions to revert this situation: for example just drop in the nest a couple of dead pigeons/day (one for the female and another tied on its legs so that the female cannot remove it, for the male to feed the chicks) or giving food to the chicks in the nest (an operation will will take some 20 min withouth disturbing much the male but providing to the chick enough energy for further begging the male). This should be done just for one more week, because it is now the critical period: then, the chicks will be old enough to eat the preys alone and perhaps to compete with the female for the food.

To help the three chicks now, in my view, does not mean at all to interfere with Natural Selection!!

By the way an artificial nest is already a human interference with our environment and watching on-line the show of the slow death of the chicks makes me and many other visitors quite frustrated and unhappy.
Also, by being part of this show we are also part of this “natural selection” and in case of peregrines, we as humans we havy many responsibilities:
-first: we make them almost disappearing with DDT and other noxious productus;
-second: we struggled for helping the population all around the world to recover, sometimes by introducing (thousands of ) captive-raised birds and often (in the States) by introducing birds from other geographic areas;
-third: we provide them, in many cases good nesting opportunities which they suddenly accepted thus confirming that habitat, including urbanised areas, is suitable for them to breed and reproduce and that perhaps only nesting sites were a limiting factor;
-fourth: we placed webcams and gave the opportunity to thousands of people to watch the secret life of these birds on their nest from their home pc.
This latter in my view is the best help we gave to these birds because people can appreciate the daily effort of these birds to protect and raise with care their chicks. And people loves them and suffer for accidents due to Natural Selection (unhatched eggs, chicks dying because of intra-nest competition or disease), but do not like to suffer for the omission of some simple actions which can revert a situation created by a series of unexpected events...


Giacomo Dell’Omo
President, Ornis Italica
www.birdcam.it
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